When You Quit Being Defensive (Chelsea Handler)

Listen now (48 mins) | "I couldn't believe it, but I had a choice there in the moment to accept it or defend it, and I just accepted it. And moreover, the louder marking of that conversation was..."

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Photo Credit: John Russo

I really love Chelsea, including Chelsea’s story about a pivotal moment when Jane Fonda intervened on her, and why she gave up being defensive after working with her therapist—which she’ll share more about.

Today, we also talk about how Chelsea’s learned to be honest with herself, and how she still had some secrets to reveal in her new book I’ll Have What She’s Having.

We talk a bit about jealousy and competition, and how Chelsea has big-sistered so many women, including me. We get into our Enneagrams as well, and something we’ve both observed about men while skiing.

Of course, I love how funny Chelsea is today, and always. I also think there is a powerful lesson for all of us in how comfortable she is with her own shadow and humanity—and how she does not project onto others. Once again, I’ve learned a lot from her.

MORE FROM CHELSEA HANDLER:

I’ll Have What She’s Having

Life Will Be the Death of Me

Dear Chelsea Podcast

Las Vegas Residency: Chelsea at The Chelsea

Follow Chelsea on Instagram

Chelsea has an upcoming Netflix Special, Chelsea Handler: The Feeling, coming on March 25.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:

ELISE:

Obviously, even though I've heard some of these stories before. Just howled howled with laughter and delight as I read this book, so thank you. I needed it.

CHELSEA:

Oh, well thank you. Thanks for reading it. I'm glad you liked it.

ELISE:

I did. I have to say, well, it's hard to pick a favorite, but woman king might be my favorite. I didn't know this about you.

CHELSEA:

I know no one would know it about me. I have so many secrets. I realized in writing this book, all the things that I was revealing, I didn't think I had anything left to reveal. I've been so open my whole entire life and then people are like, I didn't know about this with you and children. I didn't know that you could cause periods. I'm like, I know. I have all sorts of tricks up my sleeve.

ELISE:

So if anyone is listening and they have a child who is desperate to get their period, they need to spend the night in bed with Chelsea Handler, which sounds wrong.

CHELSEA:

Yes,

ELISE:

But you set it up very appropriately.

CHELSEA:

Yes, I don't want this kind of responsibility, but I don't want to shirk it either, and people have come to me from all across the globe to help their daughters get their periods and I deliver each time.

ELISE:

It's really astonishing wit the editor that we share was telling me how after she read that chapter, she woke up the next morning and had her period out of cycle too. So I think it's transferable. Chelsea, this is

CHELSEA:

Really, really funny. To be clear to listeners, I believe I have so much female hormonal energy and since I haven't had any output by way of childbirth, I feel that my hormones are in such a rage that I am able to bestow upon people their periods, people who gotten their periods, and people who think their periods have ended with menopause all have gotten their periods when they've slept in a bed with me. So I'm not doing anything physical to them to clarify. It's my essence and my just being. So

ELISE:

Yes, and then the book presents a whole roadmap to your heart, which I was very surprised to learn that you just need to have children that you can more or less adopt, and in which case they will be invited for hang time with Chelsea. I didn't no idea that you love children as much as you do.

CHELSEA:

Well, no, no, no. I don't love children. Let's not get carried away. I mean, I love all people and I do love children, but it's not like I'm seeking children out in my life. That is definitely not what is happening. If anything, I would always be like, no, no, but if they're coming my way, I'm not going to turn a child away. Do you know what I mean? No child left behind, so is my policy. So when they are attracted to me in a sense, when they want to spend time with me, I take that as a compliment. I feel for children in the sense that I want to listen to them. I want to be there as a sounding board or as someone who's just witnessing them. I remember as a child, all I wanted was someone to watch me do my cartwheel 1500 times and would watch me do this jump that I could do off the balance beam and gymnastics.

Those are the things that I remember missing when my parents didn't show up to those events or my brothers and sisters wouldn't come. And so whenever I am around children, that tugs at me like the act of being seen and the act of going skiing with my friend's son who just wants to ride through the skate park or the ski park every day and jumping off jumps, and I'm basically just videotaping him. I'm not skiing, I'm watching him. I don't want to be doing that obviously, and I don't think any parent does, but I understand the value in it and I respect it.

ELISE:

Yeah, well, it's very sweet. I mean, it's one of the things, and we'll get to this in a minute, and I love that kid who you can't eat lunch with him at the bar, unfortunately. You have to get a table with this. I know that was,

CHELSEA:

First of all, I show up with this 14-year-old kid or 13 at the time, I think, I don't know how old he is now. It's hard to keep track of everyone's ages, but we went into the restaurant that I go into every day. I get a margarita juice boost and some soup at noon each day, and I had him for the day, so I was like, oh, let's get two seats at the bar. And when I got there, they said, you can't sit with a minor at the bar. It had never occurred to me that I would be sitting with a minor at the bar or that you couldn't. So then I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. My bad. We'll take a regular table. And then when we sat down at a table, I realized there's just something very more formal about sitting across from someone that's sitting next to them. There's something much more casual about being at a bar and sitting next to someone, and it's like when you're dating someone, you want to sit next to them. You know what I mean? Or it's just less pressure for conversation. All of a sudden there I was sitting across from a 13-year-old having a margarita at lunch being like, now we have to have a formal conversation. It was just all very, I'm like, how did I end up in this situation?

ELISE:

And no bartender to triangulate off of no one else interact with. Right,

CHELSEA:

Right. That's right.

ELISE:

Well, one of the things that I love about you, and I don't think I'm alone, I think this is part of your incredible appeal, is that you are a walking paradox. I have never met anyone like you, so sharp and hard in some ways, and then so soft and gooey, and this book is about that. Also, you mostly come to us and Instagram from bed, and yet you're the hardest worker, I think. I know in your space, you work so hard. How do you find the time to actually do that when you're skiing and smoking so much pot?

CHELSEA:

I have to smoke pot because I work so hard. Thank you for recognizing my hard work. I don't know, I guess I like to hustle. I like to hustle. I don't want to just get by. I want to excel, and I think it's very admirable when people are actually really involved in what they're doing. They're not just signing their name on something and going, okay, I really believe in this, and not knowing what the hell they're talking about. So I've always worked really hard, but I also vacation really hard. I like both sides of it. I've been here for two weeks in LA and my schedule every day, my calendar is overwhelming and crazy, and by the end of the day, I'm just wrecked by 6:00 PM I'm just get away from me, anyone, and then I'm going to Whistler for two weeks where I won't have to do any work.

So it's a little bit imbalanced and sometimes it is really hard to manage, but I respect my work ethic a lot and I love that about myself. I love that I'm not lazy. I love that I'll fight to make sure something is really good. I'm not a perfectionist, I don't think, but I want things to be a certain way, so I'm not attached to the outcome of every single thing. I have hopes and I have dreams, but I'm mature enough to know, okay, if this book doesn't hit number one and it's number three, you're not going to cry. You know what I mean? I'm not like that anymore in my childhood phase. I'm a woman and I'm empowered and I'm successful, and so that is good for me. I appreciate all of that success and I appreciate all of the abundance, but I think one of the things I like most about myself is how hard I work.

ELISE:

Yeah, no, it's very remarkable and that your work is your own. It feels like almost fully. I think anyone reading your book will feel like you are, well, I'm sure you're going to narrate it to us in the audio book, but that it's you. It doesn't feel filtered through anyone else.

CHELSEA:

Yeah, no, it's me. I mean, all of my main sources of income, whether it's my standup or my podcast or whether it's my books, the benefit of having such a strong point of view and having success before is that I don't really have to answer to anybody. I'm my editor, I'm my boss, and I perform really well within those parameters. I don't really love having someone to answer to. I don't really love getting notes from a network or whatever. I'm better as a self propeller. I can generate the creative and I can do it. Of course, I have help in different areas. I'm hosting the Critic's Choice Awards, for instance, and I have writers that do that monologue for me, and we get together and do that. But when it comes to my books and it comes to my standup and my podcast, it's very much authentically me and only me. So that affords you a lot of freedom.

ELISE:

Yeah. It's interesting. I hope this makes sense, but I was talking to a friend and she was saying how she sees and so many people, women in particular, this employee mentality, and I definitely abide by that. I don't have a boss, and yet I am looking for anyone to be my boss and to tell me what to do. You obviously don't have that. How have you not been corrupted? I mean, I think one of the things that is so commendable about you and stunning is your fierce devotion to your own integrity. I've never seen you be synco ever, and how do you hold that and not get corrupted by an audience that wants you to do a certain thing or be a certain way or have a certain perspective? How do you do that?

CHELSEA:

Well, it's not as much of an effort as you're making it sound for me. It's not because it's just who I am. I've been myself for so long that it's pretty easy to tap into, and I also now this year I'm going to be 50. I got myself here, and I'm going to get myself to the next 10 years and then the 10 years after that, and hopefully it won't go on for much longer, but I am in charge of my destiny. I've always been in charge of my destiny, and there's now 25 years of data proving to me that I'm the best source of inspiration for me, and I'm the best judge of what's going to work and what isn't. And even when things don't work, it's okay. It's not the end of the world that's part of becoming better at your craft and your creative. I am a creative, and I've leaned into my creative side so heavily, and my creative is different than another's creative. I'm not creating fiction. I'm just sharing my life with everyone. It's much easier when you think about it. It's not like I'm writing novels or telling stories that aren't about me. Everything is kind of self-generated, and it's about my real life, so that makes it, oh, I see your little cat limping in the background.

ELISE:

He has three legs, so poor baby a tripod. I know. He's so

CHELSEA:

Cute though. Yeah, he doesn't know he has three legs probably. Yeah, so I pretty much think that you really have to find out who you are and stay as close and true to that as possible, regardless of what area or sector you're in. It doesn't matter if you're a public person, but I think it's so advantageous to really stand in your shoes and find your groundedness and when you are grounded, I know when I feel grounded and rooted, there is very little you can do to knock me over. When I'm up in the air and I'm flying around and I don't have my ducks in a row, that's when I'm vulnerable to outside voices or any sort of things that don't go. That's when I could become more, but it is a real practice to just like, okay, I know myself better than anyone knows myself, and I know what I'm doing here. I have confidence in my capability. I don't feel like I felt when I was 20 or 30, or even in my early forties when I had a shaky experience doing a show at Netflix. I was like, this isn't right. This doesn't feel like me. But I couldn't really be honest with myself about that. I'm not in that place anymore. If something doesn't feel right, it doesn't, and I'm not willing to just be like, okay, forget it. You have to address it, and it's all just part of growing up. Right?

ELISE:

Yeah. Well, and this I think is part of your paradox because you both open and closed the book with Jane Fonda, and I have to say, I thought that story was so beautiful the way that Jane Fonda called you in and essentially said, you're behaving like a monster or you're out of your own integrity, and you were open to it, which is also

CHELSEA:

Right. Well, I was only open to it. I mean, the timing could not have been more perfect because I had just started with Dan Siegel, my therapist. I had just started with him, and so had I not started with him and understood that defensiveness is a sign of not being untruthful. If you're right about something and you're right, then you don't have to defend yourself. You're like, okay, you can say whatever you want about me, but I know that's not true. Knowing that defensiveness is just defensiveness and not a way to get from point A to point B. Learning that in the short time that I had spent with Dan was a huge bonus for me in terms of dealing with that conversation with Jane Fonda because it was mortifying her telling me how badly I had behaved. I couldn't believe it, but I had a choice there in the moment to accept it or defend it, and I just accepted it.

And moreover, the louder marking of that conversation was that she had taken the time to have a difficult conversation with someone that I know now that she cared about, and that set up for me a kind of map of how I wanted to be as a woman. What am I going to do for other women who's I'm willing to have those difficult conversations too. There's so many people, especially in this town, that avoid conflict, that are scared of difficult conversations, and I find I like to go at those conversations and I want to be a friend to anybody who needs one. I want to be a lifter upper. So when she did that, the overarching theme was like A, she's never going to have to speak to me again. I will make sure that the first time is the last time. And B, it was really something to work towards and model myself after. Who doesn't want to be like Jane Fonda? I do,

ELISE:

And I want to go back to this. We're going to circle back to this idea of catching yourself when you're defensive. But before we go to that, I will say you have big sister me. I think you probably big sister, most people in Los Angeles in terms of calling me to the mat in a way that was very meaningful and very moving for me. So I want to say that without being too abstract, but you are really good at it, and most people, as you said, would shirk it or find ways around it. Maybe you did really miss your calling as a therapist. I don't know.

CHELSEA:

That's my podcast, dear Chelsea. People call in for advice and I give them therapy. I mean, sometimes the advice is probably not that great, but usually it is. I mean, I am a big sister. That's how I like to think of myself. I want to be part of the sisterhood. I want to always help women and anyone really, it's not just women, it's just that I'm a woman. So it becomes more obvious to help other women and because those are the majority of people in my life are women overwhelmingly. But I definitely always want who's better to help someone in a situation than someone who is objective and that's not really involved in your life. Who better to ask advice from than someone who doesn't really have any skin in the game? And that's why, A, I love doing my podcast, and B, why I love being there for people in times where they need a little bit of a push or to look at something and it's okay, especially in this town, it can be scary and you can feel ostracized and you can really, you get into that compare and despair and everyone's so insecure and it's just exhausting.

And I don't ever really like to get mired down in my LA life because I am so easily affected by that, and I take other people's energy on a lot. I wouldn't call myself an empath, but I would say that I am very sensitive to other people, and I find in LA the vibe in LA is just sometimes I find it quite ick. I'm just like, this is not, that's why I'm always bouncing around. I'm in Spain or I'm in Whistler, or I'm whatever I'm doing. I'm always on the road on tour, so I'm easily out of town anyway, but that is something that I really wish we could fix about Los Angeles and about women, and who knows, maybe the time is now, maybe it is going to happen more now, but I want us to all just be together and not be in such competition with each other.

ELISE:

Yeah. I want to talk about competition. I want to talk about Donna, your ski buddy, but to double click on this and this idea of sisterhood, because I think we share, many of us share this frustration, and I'm not in the industry so I'm not really exposed to it, but the way that we market sisterhood and being for each other and then our failure to do that repeatedly and somewhat compulsively. I mean, I always feel like there's no one I'd rather be around than women, and then I also, I don't want to ever turn my back on a woman and give her an opportunity. That's a terrible way to feel. It's terrible. And yes, it's part of our own psychology that I think you are a really good steward for, which is how do you in these moments, call people to their highest selves? How do you say you need to live out your values? This is not, there is a disconnect, a dissonance between who you say you are and what you stand for in the world and how you are being in this moment, which I think is really important. I try to do this as well, but you're quite skilled.

So going to that defensiveness, which I think takes so many of us down at the knees, particularly women, and this is what so much of my work is about right. You tell a woman she's bad and it becomes an immediate projection. It's so scary, this reputational harm for women. So when you learn from Dan Siegel, defensiveness is a sign that there's information for you. Can you take us through that process if it sticks, if it hurts, it's for you. There's something in there for you. Is that how you perceive it?

CHELSEA:

Yeah. It only matters if you think it's true, right? And if it is true, then there's no defense anyway. If it's true, there's no defense. And if it's not true, there's really no defense. Defensiveness really doesn't have any place in my understanding of what I've gleaned from therapy. If you say, oh, you're a liar, you're a cheater, you have a gambling problem, none of those things are true. So who cares? I'm not going to argue with you about that, but if you say something that is true, let me think. You smoke too much pot or you drink too much, I'd be like, yeah, those things are true. You're right. Also no defense. You know what I mean? I don't think there's any room for defensiveness because you don't have to argue with anyone about anything. I used to be so defensive. I used to be like, oh my God, I had to be right.

I had to win arguments. And I just learned over time and through reading so many books about how useless defensiveness is, it's kind of like jealousy. There's no room for it. There's no space for it because it's so unproductive and it builds, you get envious. And that envy, if you don't have a real healthy understanding of what envy means and where it's coming from, it can just build and be really destructive and become a big kind of blockade for you. And the same goes for defensiveness if you're running around arguing all the time, you know what I mean? That kind of becomes bigger than you, and then who are you? So I don't want to use things that aren't advancing my agenda, and my agenda is just to be better and better at being a human.

ELISE:

Yeah. Well, and I think envy for women is sort of the linchpin of so much of our women on women hate and the way that we weaponize it against each other. Specifically in this, who does she think she is? Why her and not me? How does she think she deserves that? I don't think this is conscious for what it's worth, but I think this is the cycle of how is she getting away with that? I need to put her in her place. She's too big for her britches and so on and so forth. And if we could become more conscious of it that other women potentially are showing us what we want or are reflections of something that we would like to be able to do in an unrestricted way, we might engage and less take down of each other. I don't know.

CHELSEA:

Yeah, I mean, you talked about that in your book on our best behavior a lot. You talked about envy, one of the seven sins, and I think that's true. It's like, first of all, don't beat yourself up for being envious of another person. It's okay. It's okay. We're human beings. We have dark thoughts, we have human thoughts. Envy is natural, but to act on envy is a whole different endeavor to act and prohibit other people because you don't want them to succeed or act in a way that is going to make somebody else flounder. That's not acceptable. But all the thoughts are okay, you can have negative thoughts. You can have dark thoughts. You can think, oh, fuck, I can't live. I'd rather get euthanized than live through this administration. I'm not going to euthanize myself mostly because you can't. It's almost impossible to do, but you know what I mean? They're just thoughts. They're not actions. When a thought becomes an action is when you have to really go, okay, what am I doing here?

ELISE:

Yeah, exactly. And this is why I think your relationship to your own darkness, which is a huge part of your brand and you're very comfortable with your own shadow and your humanity, I think is powerful lesson for all of us because we're all full of it. It's just part of it.

CHELSEA:

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. We all are. It's very true. We have to give ourselves a lot more grace than we give ourselves. For so many times in my life, I thought I was a bad person because I was having jealous thoughts or I was having competitive thoughts, or someone else was exceeding beyond my success, someone I helped or all this nonsense, and I realized, it's okay. You can feel that way and then be responsible about examining those thoughts and what they actually mean because they can be really useful also, and they can be turned into something much more positive than how they started.

ELISE:

Well, and I think so much of your work, whether you're conscious of this or not, is making your quote badness or naughtiness the thing rather than projecting it onto other people. And it's a great lesson. I think it's very healthy. Are you an Enneagram eight? You have to be an Enneagram eight. Do you know your Enneagram?

CHELSEA:

Yeah, I believe I am an eight. Yes.

ELISE:

You're an eight. You're an eight. I don't want to be like, you're an eight, but you're an eight.

CHELSEA:

Oh, that's so funny. Eight is the one who gets involved in other people's, the fixer, right?

ELISE:

Well, fixer is the two, and eights and twos are very related, but eight is the challenger. Eights really come alive in conflict or when they meet some sort of resistance, and there aren't maybe that many women who are powerful eights. But the thing that I love about eights too is that they will fiercely defend and protect, but really that's what they want for themselves. Does that resonate for you? All you want is someone to defend and protect you.

CHELSEA:

Completely, completely. I'm like, where am I in my life? I want someone to take care of me the way that I take care of people. I don't really accept help from anybody. So it's kind of like a fruitless endeavor. What number are you?

ELISE:

I'm a six, and each Enneagram number has a vice. So the vice of an eight is lust, which can be lust for all of life. You just want it one it all. And sixes are run by fear, which isn't that fun.

CHELSEA:

Oh, yeah, sorry about that.

ELISE:

Yeah. We're the map makers and we think context is really important and we can understand this perspective and this perspective, and it's a little exhausting, I have to say. To be a six sixes I think are the most common.

CHELSEA:

Yeah. Yeah. My friend is a six, and I know what you mean. It's very fear-based.

ELISE:

Yes, fear-based, and we see it all hypervigilant, but eights are, and you would wing seven, which is like the joyful. This should just be fun. Let's just have fun. So yeah, you're an eight who wing seven. You need to get into Enneagram. We're going to talk about this after. Kevin

CHELSEA:

Just wrote a new book about Enneagrams. Did you interview him for it?

ELISE:

I haven't interviewed him and I haven't read it yet. Have you read it?

CHELSEA:

No. No, but he told me about it, so yeah, we got to get it. It's a whole book about them. They have a new Enneagram system. He's got a reinvent wheel, literally the wheel he reinvented. So yeah, he was just waiting to reinvent the Enneagram.

ELISE:

I think I looked at it and it's like a Norton reference guide for practitioners, and I was like, oh man. I don't know if I have a mental capacity to break this down, but I'll try.

CHELSEA:

Has the mental capacity to break it down. It's you between generally. You,

ELISE:

I don't know. You share my love of David Hawkins. Do you know? This is so nerdy, but you might like it. The work of Ian McGilchrist is a neuroscientist. He wrote, he is the more popular one. It's the Master in the Emissary, and it has to do with comics. And I think this is why you'd find it interesting, but it's this idea of right brain, left brain, and that the right brain, the right hemisphere holds all the context and then the left hemisphere hold all the facts and details. And when you knock out the right hemisphere, the left hemisphere live abates. And his argument is that we're becoming a left brain focused society, but that he talks about poets, creators, comics as having almost like an overextended right hemisphere, which is the ability to hold the whole and see the entire context. And then that's where creative genius comes from. Because comics isn't that interesting though. You hold the whole, and then you use language as a metaphor and story to explain this bigger paradigm, but it's also why comics he thinks are more susceptible to depression.

CHELSEA:

Yes, yes, that's true. For sure. I don't suffer from depression, I don't think. Not that I'm aware of, but comics in general definitely are a more depressed, creative.

ELISE:

Yeah. I'm happy for you that you seem to have skirted it. Maybe you ski so much. I can't believe we haven't talked about skiing.

CHELSEA:

I know, I know. Do you want to come film the ski video with me? We've got a cat. We've got 20 women dogs and we are filming. I rented a whole crew drones, everything. 20 women in bathing suits skiing down with our dogs behind us.

ELISE:

Oh, can I bring my three-legged cat catch?

CHELSEA:

Yeah. I mean, I have a feeling she doesn't love the snow, but I mean he doesn't love the snow. But you're welcome to join. Anyway.

ELISE:

Thank you. Well, we are going to see together your love and devotion to skiing really makes my heart soft

CHELSEA:

Skiing this season yet.

ELISE:

Yes. I went snowcat skiing in Colorado a couple weeks ago.

CHELSEA:

How was that?

ELISE:

It was amazing. It was a hard way to start the ski season at 12,000 feet, but it was really fun. And it's with this company 11, and I was doing it, writing it for a story, and we'll go back there someday. And what do you find this, my husband doesn't believe me, but there were some men on the trip and they were very sweet. But do you find that men get very threatened by you on skis?

CHELSEA:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen that before.

ELISE:

Isn't it interesting?

CHELSEA:

I know you're a decent skier, and they're like, what is she doing when they don't know what their role is because they don't have to help you? Then they're, it's the same story with men all the time. It's like mend dating super successful women when they realize what you need is not what they have to offer. It's like, I don't need you to buy me gifts. I don't need you to buy me jewelry. What I need is someone who understands me, who sees me, and who is kind and sweet. And it's funny, it's kind of analogous to skiing because as soon as a guy sees that you can ski, well, they're either super turned on or they're like, nevermind. They're trying to show off for you.

ELISE:

Yes. It's the only place that I've ever had that sort of engagement with a guy where it's the same, where they're either so psyched or it's like this subtle threatening one upmanship, and you write about it a little bit with a boyfriend where he dragged you into her boss. But honestly, I'm like, you're not a good skier. This is so out of your own bounds. Stop. I will destroy you, but stop.

CHELSEA:

Well, you're a really good skier, so yes,

ELISE:

But you're a good skier. I've seen you ski.

CHELSEA:

It's nice to have that advantage over, man. It surely is. It's really fun when people, what's really funny is when people are like, oh yeah, I ski, I ski. I'm like, no, no, no. Don't say you ski unless you ski. Just because you went on a couple of ski trips doesn't mean you know how to ski. Just because you've been skiing doesn't mean you ski. When we ski, you and I, we're going to be on the same page and we understand what that means.

ELISE:

Yeah, no, I can't wait. And let's find Donna. That story really made me laugh. Donna Tomahawking down the ski hall. Can you tell us that story very briefly?

CHELSEA:

Yeah. I was bullied by these two. I was in Whistler. I bought this house in Whistler over Covid, over FaceTime during Covid. It was right before the 2020 election. I was paranoid that Trump was going to win again. And little did I know I'd have another four years to experience that, and I was like, fuck, I have to have a backup plan. So I bought this little ski chalet in Whistler. I go up to Whistler. I'm quarantining for two weeks by myself. I couldn't be happier. I'm just doing mushrooms every day reading books. I'm like, oh my God, this is the life I have my dogs. And then finally, people are reaching out to me because all my friends in New York and LA were telling different friends they had in Whistler. Oh, our friends there, she's all by herself. She doesn't know anyone. I'm like, listen, I'm good with that.

But people think that everyone needs a companion. So these two women take me skiing one day, and their names were well in the book. Their names were Donna and Lucy, and they were so cty. I mean, they were so competitive and so bitchy. It was like I was being hazed for a sorority. That's how I felt I was being treated. They were kind of irritated that I was a celebrity first of all. One of the first things they said is, we don't really know who you are and we don't know much about you because we don't watch tv. And I was like, what a dumb thing to say to someone that's famous. First of all, do you think that's what we're thinking when we meet people is how many times have you seen me appear on television? We're people just, it went downhill, no pun intended, all day long, every interaction with, and then I realized they were racing me down the mountain and they were like 60 something year old women trying to show me that they were better skiers than I was.

And then I got so wrapped in it up in it that I found myself skiing really hard to show them. I was like, I'm going to beat these fucking bitches down the mountain. And as I was skiing down the mountain, stepping on it, I'm like, what are you doing right now? What are you doing, Chelsea? Are you racing two 65-year-old women? Why are you participating in this chicanery? So that was a real funny moment. And then I luckily never saw them again. We went to lunch and went our separate ways. They packed their lunches and were appalled that I wanted to have a margarita at lunch after I was vaping on the chair. They were like, you can't do that. You better keep a low profile. People don't want you here. Because I was like, oh my God, ladies, thanks for the fucking warm welcome. It's funny to be bullied as an adult. You're like, wait, wait.

ELISE:

But what was that about for them?

CHELSEA:

For them? I don't know what that was about for them. I don't know if they thought I was full of myself because I'm a celebrity. They seem to be stuck on that or if they were insecure about their own lives. But I talk about it in the book because it's just a reminder. I don't ever want to be that way to any woman. I don't ever want to invite a woman to come be with me and then treat her that way. And is it the whole point of getting older to learn how to be kinder and better to other women? Not the opposite

ELISE:

Theoretically.

CHELSEA:

Theoretically one would think, one would hope. I have high hope for women. I don't think we're going anywhere. I don't either.

ELISE:

Alright, before we go parting wisdom. How do we as women shift? How do we start to, because I think if women get on side with ourselves first, get on side with each other, stop looking for all the reasons to necessarily be aggrieved by external factors. Not that there aren't many grieving external factors, but if we could just get aligned with each other, I think the world would change really fast. Maybe that's naive, but

CHELSEA:

No, I don't think so. I think are, I think women are getting our acts together and we are realizing the power that we have within having a community and building community with each other and being on each other's teams rather than kowtowing to men and trying to impress men. I think the message is out. And I think our administration right now is a perfect reflection of the fact that men are scared of women's empowerment and that men are scared of women succeeding because we're not going anywhere. There are more and more successful women each year, more women in CEO positions, more women that are doing whatever they want with their lives, not getting married and not having children. So we are doing it. I believe that. I believe women are on the right track. There's still more to come, but we're not going anywhere. And the tide rises with all ships when your tide rises. Mine does too. So we have to always remember that blowing out another person's candles doesn't make yours brighter. We already know that. You don't have to go back to elementary school to learn that lesson again. Let's learn each lesson. Make the first time, the last time.

ELISE:

Yeah. No, I agree. And I think you as an example of someone who has chosen Otherhood, who is a father, as I learned toy whoopsy and Oopsy and Oopsy, these are Chelsea's children, daughters. As a father, it's a long story. It's in the book, but I mean, I knew about all of your nieces and nephews and these people who infest your home all the time, but you have all these children.

CHELSEA:

I know lots of children.

ELISE:

You have fathered a lot of children. Chelsea,

CHELSEA:

Yes. Thank you for recognizing that. Please appreciate that.

ELISE:

Probably some you don't even know about at this point, right?

CHELSEA:

Probably. I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not surprised by anything really.

ELISE:

Your procreative powers, you give girls their period and you father children, it's amazing.

CHELSEA:

And who knows how many eggs have been fertilized outside of my body that I've just left around. There could be children everywhere.

ELISE:

I think so. No, but you are so loving and such a parent to so many, and yet you don't have your own children. But I think it's a testament to the fullness of who we are. And you don't need to relegate this to your direct blood offspring in order to bring this energy to the world.

CHELSEA:

No, I would argue that I have more energy to pay attention to more children than I would have had I had my own children. That would've probably been more prohibitive in giving other people the attention that I am able to give them. One of my girls just sent me her test scores and she's like, look, dad, look. And she got 97 on this and a 97 on that. And I'm just like, it's just so funny that I'm that role and I love it, obviously, because I love love.

ELISE:

Oh, you love, love. Well, I'll let you go. Thank you for everything you do for all of us. I can't wait to ski. Happy early birthday. We're skiing. Alright. We're doing it.

CHELSEA:

We make a plan. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I'll see you soon.

ELISE:

Well, that's funny. I just realized as I went to record this outro that I recorded that entire episode with Chelsea, with my microphone not plugged in. Perfect. So if the audio quality is not as good, that is why and apologies, but it's not really about me, it's about her. I wanted to just read this moment from this Jane Fonda conversation that we were talking about because I think there's something in it for all of us. So Chelsea writes, and this is from All Have which she is having, which is her new book coming out on her 50th birthday. And obviously there's her podcast, dear Chelsea, which I've been on, which is so fun because as she mentioned, part of it is dispensing advice, which is probably as good as it costs, which is it's free. But I think what she does, she has this objective, honest stance on people's lives.

And you feel this way when you're in group therapy or when you're watching a show like Couples Therapy or you're listening to Esther Perel, that you can really see what people are up to, even if you might be up to the exact same thing, but when you watch someone get coached or you watch someone air out their issues, it can be so illustrative and helpful and to just recognize the advice that you would give in that context too. Anyway, this is the conversation with Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda calls her over for dinner and essentially has an intervention on her. So Chelsea writes, “What struck me in that moment was Jane's brutal honesty, something that has defined my entire career, but something I had never been on the receiving side of. I promptly ordered a martini. We continued our dinner and I told her that while this news was hard to hear, I had been in therapy for the past two months because I knew something was up with me and that I had in fact been dealing with the issue at hand. My deep anger good. She told me, go find out what your problem is because your gifts are, and sometimes people with the most gifts have the easiest time throwing them in the trash. Don't be a product of your environment, Chelsea. Make your environment be a product of you. This was the definition of sisterhood.” So may we help each other do that. May we help each other make the environment a product of ourselves rather than acting in reaction or in defensiveness to everything that comes our way.

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