FWIW I think Richard Reeves has evolved his thinking quite a bit since he wrote his book and now focuses a lot on school connection and emotions, along with the structural solutions.
I was briefly a school teacher and I could see the way that boys learned to disown their feelings. It happened in a pretty marked way around ages 11-12. That’s when they all start policing each other pretty aggressively to not show feelings other than anger. A light goes off in their eyes, it’s devastating to see. What frustrated me was how at my school in particular, the solution to misbehavior from boys—much of it violent or physically destructive—was to coddle them. Making the teachers apologize for “betraying trust” by sending the boy to the office because he had destroyed school property and that kind of thing. I think there’s still a marked double standard in school when it comes to discipline.
I think education needs to be radically different. What I experienced in public schools—how the systematized, homogenous approach of public school only honors certain kinds of intelligence while denigrating others—left me with a profound sense of moral injury as an educator. So many kids, boys and girls alike, believe they are stupid because their greatest gifts never get developed in school. The way that we’ve gendered the subjects (boys=math and science, girls=literature) doesn’t help.
Despite being raised by nurturing parents, I found myself rebelling against them by doing things such as enlisting in the Army, and becoming an unwitting victim of our societies picture of masculinity. It’s taken me most of my 50 years to realize that I don’t need to be ashamed of my weaknesses, nor am I required to bury my pain.
As you are demonstrating in this essay and your essay on men and loneliness, we need so much curiosity and compassion for men and boys instead of blame and shame if we are ever going to drive change that allows people - really all people since we live in "boy culture" as Niobe Way says - to thrive. Of course we need accountability and responsibility and firm boundaries, but I find people are much more likely to take those on when they feel seen and heard, when they are met with compassion and curiosity.
I am so glad you wrote about this! As a mother of three boys I am both alarmed and relieved by this conversation. Hope to read more from you on this topic meanwhile I’ll read the book!
This is soooooo interesting and important. Random thoughts: That boys have been falling behind for a century - this seems to roughly tie in with the point in history girls were allowed access to education in a more (but not completely) equal way? The implication being that boys were never ahead as such because it wasn’t a level playing field? I am interested in the idea of boys being put in classes with girls a year older, but wonder if this would ever happen because of the inevitable stigma. Maybe there should just be more fluidity in age groupings - this is more common in France, for example. Age isn’t always relevant, and emotionally maturity is as important as academic ability in that environment. So much to think about - thank you!
A hundred years ago and even less it was common for schools to be comprised of groups of children of all ages. There was no shortage of educated people then, in fact our society was thriving. Older and younger kids together in school provides more learning opportunities and is actually more representative of the human experience.
Such a good point. In many small schools (speaking from the UK) this is still the case. My children were in mixed classes - only two age groups per class, but even that helped develop their social skills I believe. None of the kids suffered academically as a result either - work was targeted to the individual level.
Thank you for covering this. The inability of my good male friends over the years to stay good friends is the jagged gash running through what my otherwise be thought of as a successful life. I have two sons and I don’t want my wound to be theirs.
Would it ever occur to you that the academic environment is divorced from reality in such a way that is abhorrent to young men?
Academia has been awash in identity politics, pseudoscience, and humanities "studies" that cannot be replicated, and will not be as it is no longer required.
The useless nature of higher education will become very clear if you head into any ivy league and sit for an hour. The students have no idea what critical thinking is, let alone how to implement it in regards to the issues of the day.
An unbearable financial burden, no saleable skills, and the lack of critical thinking make me surmise that the young men might have some vocabulary study necessary, but they are absolutely on point as far as what will help them lead a fulfilling life....
I'm a mom of two boys as well. About 10 years ago, I "retired" from teaching middle school theatre for 12 years and teaching the Arts in general for 20. I've made many observations during that time studying their behavior patterns. First, I've found that seperating boys from girls continuously offers the best academic outcomes. When I'd have the ability to offer a separate class for girls, I could put boys together in scenarios that allowed them to do some improv, and they were brilliant. They needed not to "perform" to look cool. Their scenes were imaginative and complex. Was there violence and danger? Yes. Was there problem solving mixed with finger guns, bombs, and swords? Yep. This was just what the doctor ordered. Working as a team, sometimes a team of two for those who get overwhelmed by guys with strong personalities, but all in all, they bonded. These boys were a mix of gay, straight, black, white, alpha males, and introverted nerds. It mattered not. They were able to play out things that would never have been able to be said or shown if there were girls around. Second, my eldest who is about as manly as you can get (he is a special forces Marine), loves to read everything from Shakespeare to Harari, he writes short stories, rides a motorcycle, hunts, loves classical music, and was always cast as a lead in high school shows. He says guys develop relationships by being active with other guys, meaning playing sports, accomplishing a shared goal, building something together, etc. Thankfully, his dad fostered his love of music, I fostered his love of theatre and sports, plus he has always had strong mentors in the church and military. My other son is very different in that he's much more of an introvert and not competitive. But he has developed deep relationships with guys through playing his instruments in various bands or at church or by running XC. Adding girls into the mix disrupts his flow. He feels like he cannot be himself, which is stifling for him. I am of the mindset that our world is fallen. No one is really able to be who they were created to be because we are so busy looking for the affirmation and applause of other men (and women). We are seeing the effects of this played out since Cain and Able. Boys have lost their fathers, they lack healthy mentors, they are expected to be and act like girls, but they are not girls. They may enjoy and value many of the same things yet feel culturally ostracized from pursuing such. Unfortunately,there is no simple answer, but glad you are shining a light on the issue.
As a boy I can tell you that the biggest challenge I had in school was being forced to sit inside all day long when my energy levels required running around in the woods,climbing trees and fishing. We have created an artificial culture that is in conflict with our biological instincts, and not everyone is going to fit in(conform) to their required roles. Having spent the better part of my life recovering from public education(indoctrination) I can easily look back and say that I would have been better served by a couple of hours a day of actual school time. Not every person who struggles to conform is broken, the culture is what is broken.
It makes me cringe, but my Alaskan husband used to say well that’s that guy doesn’t have a real man’s job. He equated real jobs to things you did with your hands that you could touch and physically feel. Everything else was made up or not real or not masculine.
Many men, if they sit back and think about it, would tell of the damage done as they tried to attain a masculinity that would be in line with what they thought society wanted. As a young man I well remember the battle within myself as I wondered about my sexuality. I wasn’t athletic, wasn’t interested in “planes,trains or automobiles” but k ew I had to fake it to show I was a “man”.
Excellent article and thought I’d mention New Zealand writer, Celia Lashlie, she wrote many books on this subject and wasn’t shown the respect and admiration she deserved as far as I’m concerned.
The school’s have catered to the feminine in their approach for some time. Aristotle knew this and his new Lyceum incorporated exercise, sports and competition during education. The well understood biological differences between the sexes have been downplayed and all we hear about is the push for more women leaders, managers, engineers and so forth. There is a reason Tate is resonating with young men. We don’t need women telling us about ourselves. We live in a society that tells men every day and every way, we ain’t needed.
Thank you for covering this - it's so important! I've been writing about boys a lot in my Teen Health Today newsletter. Here's an interview I did with Vox about how I look at this as a teacher and parent: https://www.vox.com/even-better/24097641/andrew-tate-masculinity-teens-boys-men-talk-conversations.
FWIW I think Richard Reeves has evolved his thinking quite a bit since he wrote his book and now focuses a lot on school connection and emotions, along with the structural solutions.
I was briefly a school teacher and I could see the way that boys learned to disown their feelings. It happened in a pretty marked way around ages 11-12. That’s when they all start policing each other pretty aggressively to not show feelings other than anger. A light goes off in their eyes, it’s devastating to see. What frustrated me was how at my school in particular, the solution to misbehavior from boys—much of it violent or physically destructive—was to coddle them. Making the teachers apologize for “betraying trust” by sending the boy to the office because he had destroyed school property and that kind of thing. I think there’s still a marked double standard in school when it comes to discipline.
I think education needs to be radically different. What I experienced in public schools—how the systematized, homogenous approach of public school only honors certain kinds of intelligence while denigrating others—left me with a profound sense of moral injury as an educator. So many kids, boys and girls alike, believe they are stupid because their greatest gifts never get developed in school. The way that we’ve gendered the subjects (boys=math and science, girls=literature) doesn’t help.
I'm a teacher (high school) too and I'm also worried about some of my boys :( I promise you, we teachers are doing the best we can to right this ship.
You are truly doing God’s work ❤️ high school is hard!
I love it 🥰
Great article!
Despite being raised by nurturing parents, I found myself rebelling against them by doing things such as enlisting in the Army, and becoming an unwitting victim of our societies picture of masculinity. It’s taken me most of my 50 years to realize that I don’t need to be ashamed of my weaknesses, nor am I required to bury my pain.
"All those wounded boys you lie beside..
Goodnight, my friends goodnight"
Last Years Man by Leonard Cohen
As you are demonstrating in this essay and your essay on men and loneliness, we need so much curiosity and compassion for men and boys instead of blame and shame if we are ever going to drive change that allows people - really all people since we live in "boy culture" as Niobe Way says - to thrive. Of course we need accountability and responsibility and firm boundaries, but I find people are much more likely to take those on when they feel seen and heard, when they are met with compassion and curiosity.
I am so glad you wrote about this! As a mother of three boys I am both alarmed and relieved by this conversation. Hope to read more from you on this topic meanwhile I’ll read the book!
This is soooooo interesting and important. Random thoughts: That boys have been falling behind for a century - this seems to roughly tie in with the point in history girls were allowed access to education in a more (but not completely) equal way? The implication being that boys were never ahead as such because it wasn’t a level playing field? I am interested in the idea of boys being put in classes with girls a year older, but wonder if this would ever happen because of the inevitable stigma. Maybe there should just be more fluidity in age groupings - this is more common in France, for example. Age isn’t always relevant, and emotionally maturity is as important as academic ability in that environment. So much to think about - thank you!
A hundred years ago and even less it was common for schools to be comprised of groups of children of all ages. There was no shortage of educated people then, in fact our society was thriving. Older and younger kids together in school provides more learning opportunities and is actually more representative of the human experience.
Such a good point. In many small schools (speaking from the UK) this is still the case. My children were in mixed classes - only two age groups per class, but even that helped develop their social skills I believe. None of the kids suffered academically as a result either - work was targeted to the individual level.
Thank you for covering this. The inability of my good male friends over the years to stay good friends is the jagged gash running through what my otherwise be thought of as a successful life. I have two sons and I don’t want my wound to be theirs.
Would it ever occur to you that the academic environment is divorced from reality in such a way that is abhorrent to young men?
Academia has been awash in identity politics, pseudoscience, and humanities "studies" that cannot be replicated, and will not be as it is no longer required.
The useless nature of higher education will become very clear if you head into any ivy league and sit for an hour. The students have no idea what critical thinking is, let alone how to implement it in regards to the issues of the day.
An unbearable financial burden, no saleable skills, and the lack of critical thinking make me surmise that the young men might have some vocabulary study necessary, but they are absolutely on point as far as what will help them lead a fulfilling life....
Reading back through this comment I would apply the entire thought to young women as well, and find it sad for the ladies for the same reasons....
Such a great topic that needs to be discussed more. Our boys deserve better. ❤️
I'm a mom of two boys as well. About 10 years ago, I "retired" from teaching middle school theatre for 12 years and teaching the Arts in general for 20. I've made many observations during that time studying their behavior patterns. First, I've found that seperating boys from girls continuously offers the best academic outcomes. When I'd have the ability to offer a separate class for girls, I could put boys together in scenarios that allowed them to do some improv, and they were brilliant. They needed not to "perform" to look cool. Their scenes were imaginative and complex. Was there violence and danger? Yes. Was there problem solving mixed with finger guns, bombs, and swords? Yep. This was just what the doctor ordered. Working as a team, sometimes a team of two for those who get overwhelmed by guys with strong personalities, but all in all, they bonded. These boys were a mix of gay, straight, black, white, alpha males, and introverted nerds. It mattered not. They were able to play out things that would never have been able to be said or shown if there were girls around. Second, my eldest who is about as manly as you can get (he is a special forces Marine), loves to read everything from Shakespeare to Harari, he writes short stories, rides a motorcycle, hunts, loves classical music, and was always cast as a lead in high school shows. He says guys develop relationships by being active with other guys, meaning playing sports, accomplishing a shared goal, building something together, etc. Thankfully, his dad fostered his love of music, I fostered his love of theatre and sports, plus he has always had strong mentors in the church and military. My other son is very different in that he's much more of an introvert and not competitive. But he has developed deep relationships with guys through playing his instruments in various bands or at church or by running XC. Adding girls into the mix disrupts his flow. He feels like he cannot be himself, which is stifling for him. I am of the mindset that our world is fallen. No one is really able to be who they were created to be because we are so busy looking for the affirmation and applause of other men (and women). We are seeing the effects of this played out since Cain and Able. Boys have lost their fathers, they lack healthy mentors, they are expected to be and act like girls, but they are not girls. They may enjoy and value many of the same things yet feel culturally ostracized from pursuing such. Unfortunately,there is no simple answer, but glad you are shining a light on the issue.
As a boy I can tell you that the biggest challenge I had in school was being forced to sit inside all day long when my energy levels required running around in the woods,climbing trees and fishing. We have created an artificial culture that is in conflict with our biological instincts, and not everyone is going to fit in(conform) to their required roles. Having spent the better part of my life recovering from public education(indoctrination) I can easily look back and say that I would have been better served by a couple of hours a day of actual school time. Not every person who struggles to conform is broken, the culture is what is broken.
It makes me cringe, but my Alaskan husband used to say well that’s that guy doesn’t have a real man’s job. He equated real jobs to things you did with your hands that you could touch and physically feel. Everything else was made up or not real or not masculine.
Many men, if they sit back and think about it, would tell of the damage done as they tried to attain a masculinity that would be in line with what they thought society wanted. As a young man I well remember the battle within myself as I wondered about my sexuality. I wasn’t athletic, wasn’t interested in “planes,trains or automobiles” but k ew I had to fake it to show I was a “man”.
Excellent article and thought I’d mention New Zealand writer, Celia Lashlie, she wrote many books on this subject and wasn’t shown the respect and admiration she deserved as far as I’m concerned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celia_Lashlie
Brilliant insights
The school’s have catered to the feminine in their approach for some time. Aristotle knew this and his new Lyceum incorporated exercise, sports and competition during education. The well understood biological differences between the sexes have been downplayed and all we hear about is the push for more women leaders, managers, engineers and so forth. There is a reason Tate is resonating with young men. We don’t need women telling us about ourselves. We live in a society that tells men every day and every way, we ain’t needed.